airplane conversation
Some time ago, I was minding my own business in my airplane window seat on a business trip. I don’t work on airplanes, I only read. I was reading a book called “Voting about God in Early Church Councils”. I had a conversation with a man next to me about this book. Briefly put, the conversation started along the lines of: if the church councils that created the Nicene creed which bible-believers think is the devil’s tool because it is a statement of faith created by mere (catholic) mortals outside of the Bible — if these councils created this creed and made other decisions like it, then why was the work of those same heretical councils also holy in that one of them did the work of choosing the books to be included in the Bible? In the fifth century, hundreds of years after Jesus’ death?
And so ensued a quite silly conversation about how the Bible was created. I asked “Who compiled it?” to which he replied with a bible verse. No, I said, who was the first person to actually put it in a book? This couldn’t possibly have been written about *inside* the book when it was being compiled. He had absolutely no idea, and had never even thought of it. This book which ruled his life, he didn’t even care where it came from — it was enough that he had a copy.
And then he brought up Constantine, which was a sad mistake since I had just been listening to “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”. The conversation got even sillier.
Him: Constantine wasn’t a Christian, you know.
Me: Yes, I agree completely. Although he Christianized the Roman Empire.
Him: But he wasn’t a Christian! He was a politician! See here in this Bible verse, it says “Don’t be a politician, don’t try to put yourself above others, be humble and yours is the kingdom of God” [I’m totally misquoting of course but something along those lines]. Constantine was a politician, he couldn’t ahve been a Christian!
Me: Yes, I agree completely. Not a Christian. BUT, he can not be a Christian and still allow Christianity to take hold. He could order the government to allow Christians to practice.
Him: I suppose he could have … (still not convinced)
Me: In fact, I would say that Constantine encouraged Christianity among his subjects so they would all practice this humility thing, be docile, and never try to become a politician and hence never threaten his power. (pause) Of course, I admire you and all Christians for being humble and waiting for your reward in the kingdom of God - I’m not saying it’s bad by any means, I’m just saying Constantine might have recognized this as something useful to him.
The conversation ended back with how the Bible was created. I claimed that the New Testament had the hands of the Catholic Bishops all over it in that the translation was commissioned by the Catholic Church — so he looked up in his little Watchtower database on his PDA, and found an article expounding on how old the Bible is. There are lots of copies of the old testament to compare, but the earliest existing version (so his PDA said) of the new testament is from the late fourth century. As we left the plane, I suggested he go look up St. Jerome (commissioned by the Bishops to translate existing Hebrew versions to Latin), and read how the Bishops chose which of those translations woudl become the Holy Bible as he knew it today. As we left the plane, he invited me to sit with him while he fired up his laptop and check it out on the web to see if I was telling the truth, but I had no desire to follow this follower any more. I didn’t want him to stop being a Christian or even to stop believing in the good news of the Bible, I just wanted him to think for himself a little bit. It can be done, I know it can.
Posted by Marie on August 7th, 2007 under Uncategorized4 Responses to “airplane conversation”
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August 7th, 2007 at
It always confuses me as well, why christians still remain christian when they find out that the founders of christianity were scam artists. I think it’s because they don’t know what else to have faith in. I got into a debate with a christian yesterday about how christianity was created with the intentions of breaking down people’s free will, and the guy said that wasn’t a bad thing because mankind can’t be trusted with free will anyway! It’s like they have Stockholm syndrome.
August 7th, 2007 at
Hi Maria,
Your blog site was still on my Internet Explorer, so I was checking it out and read this entry and then saw the comment, so I wanted to just throw my two cents in. I remember you mentioning this when you came to Naperville and I have to agree that is can be disconcerting that people feel this way, but I also have to say that my friends who call themselves Christians, but are intelligent enough to recognize these facts about the early church still believe in the Bible because of the Holy Spirit and God’s plan for faith.
I also have to mention that to a certain to degree I feel like most religions are a “leap of faith” (bad turn of a phrase I realize) and that is the point. “We” put our trust/faith in something that is far beyond our time and live by the standards and rules that it has set. I would say that this is true for most religions that I am familar with. And to a certain degree, that is the point. You choose a religious faith to follow because you were raised that way or you chose that faith, but you choose to put your faith in the following and beleive what it has told you, even though Moses, Mohammad, Chris, Buddah, etc. is long passed.
Just my two cents to all of this.
August 7th, 2007 at
And I just realized that I mispelled some things and called you Maria…my apologies, it is late and I need to be a better editor of my own thoughts…sorry.
August 8th, 2007 at
I don’t disagree - I think it is perfect that people have a leap of faith, and I admire them. What I disagree with is people who argue with me as if their faith-based book is historical fact.